It's the whole idea of being able to choose how you want to define yourself.. I think a lot of us are confronting the question, especially at my age - how did I end up here or like, what do I want with my life?Angelina
is a series about what it is like to be young and Chinese in today’s Australia, hosted by and for young Chinese Australians. In this season, we ask more difficult, relevant, spicy and sexy questions for you, so that you can be heard.
Credits:
Host: Wing Kuang and Dennis Fang
Producers: Bertin Hyunh
Art: Joanna Hu
SBS Team: Joel Supple and Max Gosford
Transcript
Wing Kuang
This podcast was recorded on the land of the Camaraygal people and Wurundjeri people. We'd like to pay our respects to elders past and present, and recognise their continuous connection to Country. Welcome to Chinese ish, a podcast about what it is like to be young and Chinese in today's Australia. My name is Wing, I'm a former Chinese international student.
Dennis Fang
And I'm Dennis, a second-generation Chinese Australian who grew up in Western Sydney, and a new co-host for Chinese-ish season 2. So Chinese-sih is back, after three years.
Wing Kuang
Yes! And unfortunately, my previous co-host Mark Yin is now working on his PhD in the UK, so I have you, Dennis, and Bertin, who will join us in the next episode, to be the new co hosts.
Dennis Fang
If you weren't here for Season 1, Chinese-ish is all about diving deep into the things Chinese Australians care about, with people you can relate to and learn from.
Wing Kuang
Let's start with a controversial one. During our break in the past three years, it seems the divide between Gen Z andMillennials have grown and grown.
Dennis Fang
Yeah, with the cost of living and housing in crisis, it's got me wondering, do Chinese Australians still believe in a fair go?
Wing Kuang
What do you mean by that?
Dennis Fang
Well, my story is one that a lot of you are probably familiar with. My parents came to this country with not much, and through working hard, were able to establish quite a good life here.
Wing Kuang
Yeah, I totally get that as a first-generation migrant myself. I used to be a very strong believer of working hard as I settled down in Australia. But I've also been wondering these days, is it really worth it?
Dennis Fang
Well, let's find out if the generations think so. And because this year is the year of this snake, we're going to work out if Chinese Australians still believe in working hard with two people born in the Year of the Snake. Joining us are 36-year-old Thomas and 24-year-old Angelina, who will share their perspectives. Welcome both.
Thomas
Thank you.
Angelina
Thank you.
Wing Kuang
For both of you. 2025 is your year. Are you worried about the Fan Tai Sui and the possible bad luck against you?
Thomas
Not too concerned about if I'm getting too much bad luck this year, but you know, if it comes my way, then you know, I'll roll the dice, "Have got another next year. I can do it again".
Wing Kuang
And how about you, Angelina, did you start wearing all the red clothes just because of this?
Angelina
I have carried on my mother's tradition where she wears red underwear for the entire year, so I am actually wearing red. So if that's not good fortune coming to me, I don't quite know what is. I don't necessarily believe entirely in a lot of these Zodiac or star signs or anything, but I do find myself obsessively reading the horoscopes anyway, maybe because I hope that I have good luck, but also have been reading some omens of bad luck coming to me.
Dennis Fang
So you're 12 years apart from each other. How do you think your lives are different? How do you see the world differently?
Thomas
I think a lot has changed in the last 36 years of my lifetime. Born in the age of no computer, and then arrived in the age of mobile phones, handheld computers. I remember I graduated in 2012 when everyone's doing their fourth-year, third-year subject. And it was this discussion about, "where do you have a graduate jobs lined up?" And everyone was just fighting over graduate jobs. And then it was almost like, if you didn't get a graduate job, then you had to find another role. The role that I ended up working for was another small building company, but they worked us like, you know, they worked like slaves.
Wing Kuang
How do you feel about this, Angelina?
Angelina
So a lot of the things that Thomas said about feeling pressured to get a job, feeling like pressured to have a role lined up, whether that was in investment banking or whether that was at the Big Four consulting firms that was really strong.
Dennis Fang
How hard do you try at school to land in your position? My parents were the typical Asian Tiger parents. Could you tell us about how it was like when you were in school?
Angelina
I certainly was raised in a Chinese school, and most of my weekends were spent studying for scholarship testing. I often feel like, when I had graduated, that I actually had achieved quite a bit, but feeling like I needed to put all the effort that I had put into my studies to some use.
Wing Kuang
You are like the star Chinese daughter that everywhere we want to be.
Angelina
Not at all. I was like, Well, I must. I should tutor English and tutor maths, because I put all this effort into this, I better make it something that I can make, either make money out of, or, like, put to, you know, real use, as opposed to just being like something I got good marks for.
Wing Kuang
How about you, Thomas, did you play the piano or do math?
Thomas
Everything you said is like, you know, a good memory that I had. But, you know, I went up on this one. So getting ready for this one. So as much as funny, my parents own a tuition company.
Dennis Fang
You as a six year old teaching, like high school’s math.
Thomas
So, yeah, I played the piano. Did that, played a bit of y'all, I did that. Yeah, my parents started a tuition company, or they had a little branch. I try not to get involved. I try to keep my hands away from it like that.
Dennis Fang
You're not expected to take over.
Thomas
Well, actually, we, oh, in the background, my mom's, like, talking about succession. And you know, what are we doing? This is like, oh, man, if I take over, this is gonna be so Asian. Like, with this guy, he's Asian. He's Asian. He's running an Asian tuition business. So, you know, kind of feel like you're doing tuition because you're not the smartest as a class, so therefore you don't even keep doing it. I feel like that's kind of, you know, translated into work was like you're not the smartest at like, in at the job, you need to keep working harder, you know, doing all that. So yeah,
Wing Kuang
And I find that really interesting. As someone who grew up in China finished my school education, then came to Australia for university, because when I went through the school education there, I felt the social context was quite very different from Australia, like we were also required to work really, really hard. But that was because Han Chinese were the majority of the PRC society, and there are just so many people there but so few resources for you. So you have to compete with another 1 million kids to get into a sport at the university. I still remember when I was in high school, my school will literally make a poster listing 1000 students ranking in an exam there, and then you just look up, and then parents of these 1000 students would come to the school and have a look at it and appreciate that. I feel that was kind of like a social Darwinist style of education in China. And that's also why I can feel so many of my generation right now, they would choose to lie flat or go to temples or just quit their job and then move somewhere else. There are actually lots of young Chinese moving to Thailand right now, because Thailand has been seen as a very chill, casual place, and they just want to find some way stay away from the Chinese reality. But for you guys, you guys are the minority of Australian society, and do you feel that, like in Australia, you have to work hard because of the pressure of being more than a minority?
Thomas
I think maybe the other factor is that our parents are migrants, and they, I think they're migrants. Then therefore, you know, we are the first generation trying to, trying to understand the lay of the land.
Angelina
I remember specifically - it stuck in my head, this statistic [from] somewhere - that a lot of Asian Australian young adults tend to stay with their families for a lot longer than their counterparts, and I definitely see that to be true. I still live with my family, and I feel like I get to take care of them, and I owe them that for all that they've given me over the years, and also because they're sort of at an age now where I feel like they rely on me a lot more for things, whether that's to be their translator or to sit on the phone with some government agency they're having some debate with I do feel like I owe them all those things, but I must say, I am immensely grateful. Definitely is just a tricky part of young adulthood where I feel like I'm no longer the kid that is being taken care of.
Wing Kuang
And how do you feel about that, Thomas? Because you are a dad of a newborn, you have this double identity of being a son and father now.
Thomas
yeah, I guess even when I was buying my house, it's like, I would love to live in the eastern suburbs. [I] could buy there, could live there, but you still want to be part of the family. So in the end, where we decided to buy was between my wife's family and my family. Just right in the middle. It's just like we are living in a big, bigger village, just, you know, one side of, you know, either side of the village.
Wing Kuang
But that's interesting, because that would make the whole new start feeling very different, like, because all the High School dramas - at least the American style, and kind of here in Australia as well - hat is that when you go to university, you move out. This part of moving out is so important for starting an adulthood, but for us Chinese, it seems that it's just like you move out, but it's still close to your parents.
Dennis Fang
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot to consider. When did you move out, Thomas? If you don't mind me asking,
Thomas
I moved out when I got married. This is very again, very Chinese, yes, I moved out when I got married. It was 2017
Wing Kuang
So when the housing crisis still hasn't started.
Thomas
Yeah, even when I moved out, I kept close to my parents. So I lived 10 minutes away from my parents. Still, I rented a place 10 minutes from my parents. I stayed there.
Wing Kuang
And that's something I would love to ask you, Thomas, because being a typical millennial, are you seeing that this idea of moving out is a bit different between your generation and Gen Z?
Thomas
I think maybe the media is allowing us to talk more often about what is normal, what's not normal, but definitely different. And I see that even with my daughter when she turns 18, or, you know, when she finishes high school, I think we'll have that conversation. And I don't know whether I will go or I will give it to my mother, my wife and let my wife go.
Wing Kuang
What are your plans for your daughter?
Thomas
I had this conversation with my wife. It's like when I was growing up as a Chinese person, your lunch was like noodles or rice. And I was like, I remember when I was growing up at lunchtime, I was like, look at the Asian eating rice. I was eating sandwiches. And I said to my wife, "my daughter, when she goes to school, she's not having a thermos, she's not having rice, she's not having noodles. It's like, you know, packed lunch. You know, we'll pack her lunch." I probably will be more lenient. When she gets to 18, when she finishes high school, she's like, I want to explore the world. And I'll be like, maybe, you know, I'll be like, I've had, fortunately that we have, we've gone on holidays and all that stuff. So I wouldn't be surprised if I said yes to that and said, you know, go explore the world, go go live abroad, you know, and experience something. But deep down inside, I'd be like, that's so different from what I experienced.
Wing Kuang
The reason why now we are talking about moving out and the way we hang out with our parents is all because we were talking about this idea of the Chinese responsibility, like the responsibility as a Chinese Australian. And it all goes back to being the model minority, not just that we perform. We are the good ones to like non Chinese people, but also we keep the Chinese side and that whole idea of model minority has been the one that we got pressured by our parents to work really hard, but then we also pressure ourselves to work really hard. My question to you, Thomas, as a millennial, is this still achievable, this goal of being a model minority? Is this still achievable for Gen Z like Angelina?
Thomas
To be honest, I probably don't see that it's getting more diluted than where it is, you know, maybe the next generation of snakes will be even more, even more diluted. I think that that model of working hard, not just working hard for yourself, but working hard for your family. I think that's the you know, the kind of agenda of,you are, you need to work hard for yourself, then you also need to look after your mother and your father when they get old. I think that's slowly fading away. I think we are trading off those ideas of hard work for other things. And those other things could be, you know, we find priority in well being and work life balance. And I think we're trading those Chinese values off for those Western cultures. But Angelina, you seem to be kind of treading this divide between the Western individualist culture and a more communal Chinese culture quite well. And it does genuinely seem that you're trying your best to still help your parents and be the model minority.
Angelina I don't know that I am treading the balance very well. I did recently tell my parents that my plans are either to move out at the end of this year or move to London. Definitely wouldn't adhere to the whole staying at home and helping them and supporting them. I was basically fully on social media from the age of like, 11 or 12, with or without my parents knowledge, and I was connected to these really complicated ideas and very intense subjects from quite a young age. And I think it gave me the freedom to choose how I wanted to define myself, or if I wanted to define myself at all this, the singular experience of, like, bringing a thermos to school and then being like, Oh God, I'm the only person with a thermos. It's like, actually such a prolific and, like, profound experience.
Dennis Fang
I just want to say I had a twin brother, so we had two thermos and then.
Angelina
Like wanting to go and be like, well, I'll only send my kid with a sandwich. And then, you know, you challenge these ideas, and you think, Oh, well, of course, there's nothing actually wrong with taking thermos to school, and you should take whatever the hell you want. I mean, I think the reason why things have changed, maybe, is because social media and like my generation, feels much more likely to or brave enough, ambitious enough to be like I want to declare the things that I want, maybe be a bit more aggressive about it. But I also think that, yeah, I don't know. Maybe things are changing. My mom always says, oh, you know, I'm actually such a liberal Chinese mother. You know, I'm not like those other Chinese mothers who are so controlling. I let you go to sleepovers. Well, I think she's actually, she's really quite traditional. I do. I think she is. She always. Says to me, Oh, well, you know, I'm from Shanghai, and a lot a lot of other Shanghai mothers would never let you date someone who's not from Shanghai, let alone not from China. So again, I'm so liberal.
Wing Kuang
We talked about this idea of model minority, and just now you were giving a very interesting perspective. Do you feel that, though, like when we are part of the Australian society, do you feel that like young Chinese Australians like you, whether it's millennial or Gen Z, they are challenging this norm of being Chinese projected by other people?
Angelina
It's the whole idea of being able to choose how you want to define yourself, or not at all, if that's what you want. I think a lot of us are confronting the question, especially at my age, where, how did I end up here or like, what do I want with my life? Is this something that I want with my life, or is this something that my parents want with my life? And how do I dictate that? And I think that's such an existential question to ask. But as we all go through these transitory periods, whether that's graduating from university or whatever, or starting a new job, that sort of question is unavoidable. So I think, I guess my big wish for myself is not necessarily aggression in the traditional sense of the word, but the ability to declare that this is something that I want and not be deterred by things that I feel like a pressure on me or thrust onto me.
Wing Kuang
Thomas, what are your thoughts?
Thomas
The Chinese identity is not an individual identity. It's like this group identity, and it's, you know, what's best for the Chinese people, you know, the community, the family, the family. And then, you know, we were born, we're brought into this culture where we are starting to experience the change as individuals. So like, you know, like, exactly like this, I think, you know, the thermos at lunch. You know, if everyone in the school had the most lunch, then, you know, we would all, we wouldn't be like, where, you know, wouldn't have felt different. But because we're the minority and we are feeling it as the individual at school, you start to feel this, you know, individualism, and that that that individual has, slowly, as you grow up, progressed, and then, you know, built layers. And then also, now you're like, so progress compared to, you know, your what your parents used to be. And then, you know, maybe, you know, we completely look wild to what you know the people of mainland China would be. We definitely would, yeah. So, you know, I think my parents in Australian culture definitely are Chinese, but maybe they are probably more liberal than, you know, the Chinese in China, your parents, yeah, definitely.
Wing Kuang
Even myself, I strongly believe that, like, all your lunch box are like white people's food. It's like this term was so trending on RedNote, because all the Chinese international students were just like, why are you guys just eating a carrot for lunch? I'm definitely still carrying a hot meal for myself. Unfortunately though, 2025 is not just the year of Snake shadowed by Dragon. It's a year of a lot of chaotic stuff, whether it's inside Australia or outside Australia. How do you feel about that?
Thomas
So far in my life, working hard, it has always worked out. So, you know, I don't think bad. I don't think bad luck would change that. And even if bad luck was there, my mindset would be to work harder, you know, and you get over that, you know, that hump.
Angelina
I find it quite honorable that people continue to work hard, even when you want to just lie down and not and not do anything. Working hard is almost a habit. The real question of why we do the things that we do is what comes to mind when I read these articles, or when another plane goes down, or another war gets started, or whatever it is, I see bad news and I get upset, but I have quite an optimistic view that we can make incremental change, even in the face of people who clearly are not interested in that, or who are interested in making things worse for people who deserve better, quite frankly, and funnily enough, I'm subscribed to The New York Times, and I've got their push notifications on. So every single time there's breaking news, which is almost always bad news, I get it, but because the New York Times is also this sprawling empire of news, I also get recipes for the best chocolate desserts, and also, like, here's this funny cartoon. Or like, I remember it was the one one day where Trump had done something egregious again. But then the very like, next breaking news item was about the Westminster Dog Show and which dog was winning in the in the race. So I think there are, like, these two competing emotions that I have, which is, like, I just want to lie down. I think this is insurmountable. I'll never be able to buy a house, or I'll never be able to, quote, unquote, make it. And then the second part of me that's like, oh, well, it's okay to just enjoy the dog show.
Dennis Fang
You've been talking about how difficult it is to get a house in this day and age. These are the challenges which Gen Z are facing. But at the same time, it wasn't easy for millennials, either, emerging from the GFC and the. The horrific job crisis that happened over there, and obviously there were plenty of wars and tragedies during that time as well. So if you guys could swap with each other's timelines, would you do it? Who had it harder?
Thomas
I definitely think she has it harder. Yeah, I think, like, you know, back when I was growing up, I would say working hard solved like, eight out of 10 issues that you would have. But like, you know, you can't work hard at managing your own media, you know, I mean, like, and that content, you I think maybe you get overwhelmed with it, and you try to, you know, like, or you get overwhelmed with everything that's going on, because information is coming in, and you know, it is easier just to do nothing? Yeah, totally, yeah. And I could see that during uni I procrastinated a lot. I reckon if I was doing uni now, I'd procrastinate even harder, because it's just so much more you can do, it's so much easier to procrastinate.
Angelina
I don't know if it's harder. I, weirdly enough, the things that I admire the most about my the life that I currently live, relate to a lot of the, I guess, the achievements we've made since 2013 like, I think, you know, gay marriage wasn't legal in Australia until 2017 So, yeah, I think we've come far culturally in a lot of ways that really matter to me, such a way that I wouldn't exchange it for the past, because I also don't get the sense that, if I, let's just say, economically, it was easier for me to buy a house that I'd have the bravery to do so, or like the commitment and the trust in the economic environment, the trust in my own, like decision making skills to make such a big decision at that age.
Wing Kuang
What if you have a chance to speak to the younger snake of you, let's say when you were 12. Is there anything you would like to remind her or suggest to her?
Angelina
I think I would tell her to calm down. I'm of the opinion generally that adults always tell their younger selves to calm down, or that it's all going to be okay, and that's not necessarily a super helpful thing. If I tell her that her hard work pays off to take it as it comes, I want to tell myself the contrary.
Wing Kuang
Oh, interesting.
Thomas
Yeah, I would say, work harder. I would say anything I said, you know, anything I did two years earlier, if I was working pretty hard to get to where I am, would that work harder? Yeah, it's very definitely a very different type of thing, I would say.
Dennis Fang
Thanks so much to Thomas and Angelina for joining us on this episode of Chinese-ish.
You've been listening to Chinese-ish, an SBS podcast about what it's like to be young and Chinese in today's Australia. This episode is hosted by Wing Kuang and Dennis Fang, and is produced by Bertin Huynh, with support from Joel Supple and Max Gosford. The artwork is by Joanna Hu.
Wing Kuang
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