You're gonna come across some real crap in your life. You’re gonna have some huge downers, and it will not be the end of the world. It's going to challenge you, you're going to grow from it, and you might have to work really hard to come out the other side, but you'll find a way.Kerryn Harvey
Hosted by Yumi Stynes, SEEN is a podcast series about the trailblazers who persist and succeed without positive role models in mainstream culture. In this season you'll meet trailblazers like pro surfer Pauline Menczer, renowned artist Lindy Lee, community chef Duang Tengritrat, Tiwi Island Sistagirl Crystal Love Johnson, and more. Hear how these women defy convention as they grow older.
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LISTEN TO
Kerryn Harvey: An amputee who refused to let her injury stop her from dreaming big
SBS Audio
29:24
Credits:
Host: Yumi Stynes
Producers: Laura Brierley Newton, Olivia O'Flynn
Sound Design and Mix: Ravi Gupta
Executive Producer: Kate Montague and Lorna Clarkson
Theme Music: Yeo
Art: Evi O Studios
SBS Team: Joel Supple, Max Gosford and special thanks to Caroline Gates
Original concept by: Bernadette Phương Nam Nguyễn
TRANSCRIPT
(Sound of a siren and hospital)
KERRYN HARVEY: Without a doubt, it's the hardest thing I've ever experienced, I wouldn't wish it upon my worst enemy, it was just horrific. One, Karen, you're a miracle, you're still alive. We've saved your life multiple times. You know, it's impossible to describe the feeling when I finally sort of half understood what had happened to me. I was just so shocked.
(Theme music)
YUMI STYNES (Voiceover): I'm Yumi Stynes and in this episode of SEEN, I'm talking to another trailblazing woman who is thriving in her third act.
I started out this season of the podcast wanting to find out... what is the secret sauce to a fulfilling later age?
And two of the themes that keep coming up - are purpose, and being able to overcome adversity.
It’d be hard to find a person who has overcome more extreme adversity than today’s guest, Kerryn Harvey.
We start by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land on which we record... the Gamaragal [Cammeraygal] people and Gadigal people, and their elders past and present.
(Music)
Look it’s inevitable that if we live long enough, we’ll experience some bad shit.
People we love will die. No one’s health remains unchanged. Calamity happens!
If we're lucky enough to get to older age, it's very unlikely we'll arrive there unscathed.
So how do we ride it out when it sucks and it's hard?
(Music)
When it comes to travelling rough roads, Kerryn Harvey, has been down a few.
Kerryn was in her forties, mad about sport and fitness - in particular triathlons.
Sometimes she would compete, but other times she got right into spectating some of the big races.
So it was at one of these events, in 2013, that a single moment would have an unimaginable impact on her life.
HARVEY: So I was over in Adelaide following the Tour Down Under, which is Australia's version of the Tour de France. So all the main cycling teams of the world come out to do this race in January every year in Adelaide. Uh, and the best way to spectate it is to actually be on your own bikeand follow the race around, uh, and just stop at different points as all the cyclists come through.
(Sound of bicycles)
STYNES (Voiceover): You can imagine the scene, Karen and thousands of other spectators on their bikes, hustling for a good spot to see the racers hurtle past.
HARVEY: So it was just at the end of one day's racing. We're up in the Adelaide Hills with thousands of other cyclists. And we all had to get back into Adelaide to go back to our hotels. So I was just riding back and minding my own business. And another cyclist came down on my right. And he actually cut across the front of me and I had nowhere to go. So I hit his back wheel and, um, I just tumbled over the front of my bike.
I knew it wasn't going to be good because we were going pretty quickly downhill. Anyway. So I obviously crashed, and fortunately there was a lot of people around to stop and help me. They called an ambulance and I went off to the Royal Adelaide Hospital,
I had a lot of cuts and grazes, a huge bruise on my right hip and quite a wound in my right elbow which I stitched up. They cleaned me out, and then the next day they sent me home with a whole lot of painkillers and just told me to rest and just sort of not do too much. So that's what I did.
STYNES (Voiceover): Back home, Kerryn went to bed. But it didn't take long for her to wake up with an intense pain in her right arm - the arm she'd just had stitched up.
HARVEY: Like, just excruciating pain, and I felt like my arm had gone to sleep. So I switched on my bedside light and looked at my arm and I was just really horrified with what I saw. My arm was swollen to like twice its size, my fingers were all puffed up and I had these like blisters just growing on the outside of my arm. It was just, it was horrific and really, really scary.
STYNES (Voiceover): Her friends called an ambulance. But as they waited Kerryn started to feel dizzy, and fell unconscious.
HARVEY: I don't know what happened next because I can't remember anything for the next eight or nine days.
STYNES (Voiceover): From that point on, Kerryn only knows what happened to her from stories told by friends, family and medical staff.
HARVEY: So I landed back at the Royal Adelaide Hospital. The medical team there in emergency recognised that I most likely had picked up some sort of bacteria through the wound in my elbow and that I would need urgent surgery. So they called in all the, all the big surgeons and and the experts and I was rushed into surgery straight away. They thought it was probably a flesh eating bacteria, which is also known as necrotizing fasciitis.
STYNES (Voiceover): The bacteria had advanced rapidly, the surgeons moved quickly to try and stop the spread, but the further they went, the more they could see how far the bacteria had gone. They knew they'd have to take extreme measures to save Kerryn.
HARVEY: So they went out to my partner and friend who were waiting in the waiting room and said look, we can't get rid of this bacteria just by cutting away bits of Kerryn's arm, it's gonna be a mess. So the only option here is to amputate, cause she's not going to survive. My partner at the time and my friend sort of said, yeah, look, Do whatever you have to do. This girl's got a lot of life left to live. She's very fit and she'll be right. She'll get through this and she'll be okay. So that's what the medical team did. They went in and they amputated my arm. But they also had to amputate my entire shoulder, and all the muscles down my back and my side, across my chest, because the bacteria was spreading just really, really quickly.
STYNES (Voiceover): Nobody knew whether Kerryn would survive.
She had multiple surgeries to try and mitigate the complications… but each time she went under, her body had more stress and shock to deal with.
HARVEY: They honestly didn't think that I would survive. They gave me less than 5 per cent chance. My body, because of the shock and everything I was going through, and the poisoning in my blood at this stage, I went into multiple organ failure. So, they had to put me onto life support. And that's where I stayed for a week. So by the time I woke up a week later, uh, having no idea what's just happened, um, I'd probably had three or four surgeries, and had my life saved multiple times.
STYNES: But you didn't know, so you wake up and what was your reaction?
HARVEY: I was so drugged out, I sort of woke up a few times, but didn't really come out of, nothing became clear to me. It was still, everything was just hazy and fuzzy. I just had no idea what was going on and who was with me. You know, I'd see a face that I knew and then next time I opened my eyes, there was another face, someone I knew. Cause my whole family and my close friends had flown over from Melbourne and spent the week with me. And they were there for when I woke up.
So it took multiple, multiple times of telling me, Kerryn you've had a flesh eating bacteria, uh, Kerryn, we've amputated your arm and your shoulder. Kerryn, you're a miracle, you're still alive. We've saved your life multiple times. This has happened, that's happened. You know, we've had to do everything to keep you alive. It's just, I can't even fathom, you know, it's impossible to describe the feeling when I finally sort of half understood what had happened to me. I was just so shocked.
STYNES (Voiceover): Kerryn's life was completely transformed.
HARVEY: I mean, I could have decided I was going to just curl up in a corner and not go out, not let anyone see me and give up. I become a person with a disability and you think, hang on, you know, a few weeks ago I was just able bodied like everyone else, just doing my thing and now I'm like, hang on a minute, what does this mean for my life?
And then two, I've ended up with these horrific scars everywhere, I can't even get a prosthetic limb because I've lost too much body. So I look really odd.
And three, just to get, just to go through everything in the rest of my body, went through my organs and, and losing every ounce of fitness, every muscle I ever had just disappeared into thin air and in ICU, into the abyss that it all went. So I had to fight back from minus 10, fitness wise, I had to work out what the hell I was going to do with my life and how I was going to live with a disability, learn how to do everything one handed. There was just so many different parts to it.
STYNES (Voiceover): She had gone from competing in triathlons, having a strong and fit body - to suddenly being unable to walk, dress herself or feed herself... it was all... just gone.
Simple things like eating were now a colossal challenge.
HARVEY: So the knife is like your anchor, so really my right arm was the anchor for, when I think back on it, for everything you do, you hold something down and you do whatever with your other hand. So all of a sudden I've got no anchor. So, you know, you get a bit of steak or a, you know, how am I going to cut that up and just anything, how am I going to cut the veggies up?
So I did have to relearn how to eat just with a fork or use a knife in my left hand. So try and cut something with a knife, but even then it's hard to cut cause it just, moves. Like, think about a piece of toast. You might be spreading honey on toast. Like, how do you spread that honey in the toast and keep the toast on the table or plate? So I had to get some, um, modified kitchen equipment to help me with that, which I did with the help of an occupational therapist. I started working with a physio, and the first goal was just to sit up, which I couldn't do, because I was just so weak. And the second, once with help, we'd get me on my feet and just to stand there, but I was like, whoa, you know, one, head wasn't right, two, no balance, three, so weak. So, I worked really hard and I wanted to work really hard to, do these things as quickly as possible. I'd set myself these goals to get to the end of the room and then get out into the corridor. And then by the time I've left, I'm out walking the streets of Adelaide sort of thing under supervision.
And then when I got home, it was learning more the tricky things. Like going up and down stairs safely, you know, stepping over things, uneven ground, you know, we'd walk on the grass and we'd move to concrete and we'd move to something, a different surface and just, getting my balance right because obviously my whole centre of gravity's moved. So I had to sort of relearn what that was. And that just takes time.
(Music)
STYNES (Voiceover): Relearning how to use her body is one part of her recovery. But understanding now how her body is triggering responses in other people is out of her control, and a whole new experience for Kerryn Harvey.
HARVEY: You certainly get noticed a lot more. There's lots of different reactions. The positive ones, obviously my network of people who know me, who always look out for me they're amazing. They know that I'm very independent and I'd like to be independent and they won't get in my way if I want to do something by myself. They understand when they can see me struggling and then they might ask if I need help. Or they wait until I ask for help, which I do.
The second lot of people is people who, say they might see me struggling to do something but they're not sure what to do. So they'll kind of approach me and just be really apologetic. Uh, and say, look, I'm sorry. It might be like in, say you're in the supermarket, here's an example, you're trying to put beans in the bag. This is one of my classic pet hates, putting beans in the bag with one hand. Um, and so, someone might come up and say, oh, you know, I can just see, um, you're struggling to get your beans in the bag, um, would you like some help? I can, I can help you if you like. Otherwise, if you're happy to do it, whatever. And I don't mind that. I'm happy with that. It's good. I've been seeing, they're offering help because I can see I'm struggling. I appreciate that offer and I can turn it down or I can take it up. It's up to me.
Then there's the other lot of people who, to be quite frank, can be very rude, and they'll just either just stare, quite obviously, and they'll turn around, stare as they're walking away, and they just don't stop staring. I get it, it's human nature, but when it's really obvious, it's just like, you know what? Just, it's just, you know, piss off. And the other lot are the ones that actually say something without any introduction or any clarification or any justification about why they're asking their question. So, I literally get people coming up to me and saying, Hey, what happened to your arm? I get the kids, the kids I get, that's okay, they've got no filter and, you know, that's, I can answer anyway I like. Sometimes, sensibly sometimes, I make up a story. But adults, it's just like, you know what? I don't know how much I can swear on this show, but it's none of your fucking business. That's like, you know, my answer to them is, well, where's your manners?
STYNES (Voiceover): While Kerryn was re-learning how to exist on a planet that favours the able-bodied, there were still parts of her that refused to see limitations.
HARVEY: I consider myself an athlete, I suppose. And when you decide you're an athlete, pain is part of being an athlete. So, you know, if you want to do well, you have to be willing to put yourself in the pain cave and push through. The pain cave. It's not a nice place to be, but you know it's coming. So you've got to kind of welcome it with open arms and go, here it comes, here it comes and push through. And then you get to the end and, and it becomes all worth it at the time. Yes, you do kind of question your sanity and like, why, why would I be doing this to myself, this is ridiculous. But, uh, it's really rewarding when you realise you have push through and you finish something and you know, might've done reasonably well or just finished, whatever. It doesn't really matter. Uh, and really satisfying.
STYNES (Voiceover): Satisfying and utterly wild. Like I’m sitting here wondering if I can get old without peeing my pants when I cough - and Kerryn, post major trauma and amputation is setting some seriously ambitious goals with her physio.
HARVEY: I said, you know what, I wanna, I wanna, I want to be able to run again if I can run, I'd like to be able to swim again.That'd be great. And then I thought, well, maybe I wouldn't mind riding a bike either. Surely I can do that. Can I go back to triathlon? I don't know, but let's just start at stage one and, and see.
So that was great. It gave me some goals to aim for. And that's, you concentrate on, on different things And you know, whether that's, you know, have I put the washing on the line today or whether it's maybe I'll just concentrate on my technique and you know, think about how I'm going to run. I'm going to do short steps. I'm going to land mid foot. I’m, you know, I'm going to have my chest out or head up or whatever. So that's, there's a few different ways you can deal with it.
STYNES: So tell me about finishing a triathlon. What was that like? Did people try and talk you out of it or anything?
HARVEY: Nobody tried to talk me out of it. That's because most of my friends are sporty people. So, they were like, oh, yeah I'm sure they were really worried, especially about being on the bike. So I worked hard to relearn to run, I worked hard to learn how to swim, which was, had its ups and downs and funny moments too. And it was two years before I did my first triathlon. I just did a local one in Melbourne down at Elwood, just part of the summer series. So it was a sprint distance. So, 500 metre swim, 20K bike ride, 5K run. Fortunately it was a really ripping day, no wind, which was great. And it was the first time I'd seen some of the people in the tri community for the whole two years that I'd been off. Just rolling up and being around these people was just, ah, it was a sensational feeling. And I was like, wow, I just miss this so much.
STYNES: Did you cry when you crossed the finish line?
HARVEY: Yeah, I did, yeah.
STYNES: Yeah.
HARVEY: Yeah, it was, it was really good.
STYNES: Did you have to have a custom bike?
HARVEY: Yeah, I had a road bike, which I had modified. So we set up all the gears and brakes on the left. I've got electronic gears, so it's really, we just had to press a little button to change the gears and it just trimmed itself in. So you weren’t sort of fighting with the gears, trying to get it into a proper gear and to be honest, it was very scary getting back on the bike.
STYNES: Tell us about that. Tell me about your emotions getting back on the bike and riding it on a road.
HARVEY: Yeah, multiple emotions. So one, first one was, was fear. I was, I was really scared about, you know, was I doing the right thing here? What happens if I fall off again? You know, the last time I'd been on a bike hadn't ended well. So yeah, I was scared. But I wanted to try cause I used to love riding. So I thought, you know what, I just want to try and see one, if I can do it too, if I still enjoy it. And three, if it's physically possible for me to do it all. So I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing out on something that I could potentially do. Even now, I still have a bit of a fear factor associated to being on a bike. But I do still love it when I get going and you just feel the wind in your hair. I just feel like anyone else on their bike. I don't feel like I've got a disability. I'm just riding around doing my thing.
(Music)
STYNES (Voiceover): It’s the exhilaration of disappearing – while being visible again. Seen - as just another rider.
Once Kerryn got back into triathlons, she was hooked. Soon she was checking out paratriathlon times.
HARVEY: And I thought, Hmm, I reckon if I train a bit harder and get a bit fitter. I'm probably going to be competitive.
STYNES (Voiceover): She travelled to Penrith and tried out with Triathlon Australia.
HARVEY: I got there and met these amazing athletes, with all different disabilities, it was just fantastic to speak to them and I thought, you know what, this is my tribe, I like these people, they were just phenomenal, and people had amazing stories of survival and, just, what they'd been through. I can relate to these people and they can relate to me. But no one really, no one was complaining, it was just like, I'm out here and I'm gonna race and I wanna win, it was just like any able bodied person sport.
STYNES (Voiceover): Kerryn was soon invited to join the Australian Paratriathlon team.
HARVEY: I was like, oh, wow. Like, this, like, I was just like, I couldn't believe it. It's like, how can this be happening? I've only just started back racing.
STYNES (Voiceover): Just two and a half years after her accident and amputation, Kerryn went on to compete overseas at the 2014 World Championships in Chicago - where she took out the silver medal.
HARVEY: I still can't believe it. It still, as I said, still leaves me speechless thinking about that opportunity that I got from, just from something that was so horrendous, you know, to get to that point where I can do that. And something I never would have done if I hadn't become an amputee. And it was amazing.
STYNES (Voiceover): One of the goals of this podcast is to talk about what ingredients are required to both live well in the present and plant the seeds for a great later life.
What I hear from Kerryn is her network of family and friends who showed up for her multiple times in multiple ways - a whole garden of connection that she’s part of that grows and thrives.
So I want to know - what does Kerryn have that helped plant all these fabulous people in her garden of love?
HARVEY: Yeah, that's a really interesting question. I don't think there's necessarily one answer, but I like to consider myself to be a hunter and gatherer of people. I had incredible support from not just my closest friends, but you know, so many people helped me in so many different ways. Whether it was just someone to talk to, or someone just giving you food, or someone giving you advice, or someone looking after the people that were closest to me who were also suffering through this. It was just extraordinary, it really buoyed me up and made me want to get well.
And I'm a bit of a leader I suppose. So I gather people into my group by, you know, I just get excited about something and I'm passionate about things. It obviously rubs off on other people so I really can't put my finger on it as one thing, but I know, uh, even in my job, you know, as a personal trainer, that people love being part of my community that I've established and it drives itself.
STYNES (Voiceover): Kerryn has stepped away from competing for Australia as a triathlete.
Now, she runs her own personal training business. She says after her accident, she spent a lot of time thinking about how to do something that reflected her sense of purpose.
HARVEY: I decided whatever I do from here on, after being through this life changing catastrophe, I wanted it to be something that I would really enjoy doing, something I was passionate about, something I felt like I had a lot to give, a lot to offer, something that would make a difference to people. So, as you've probably worked out already, fitness is definitely my passion. So I decided to enroll in a certificate four in fitness, which took six months and I qualified as a personal trainer. I knew when I was halfway through the course that I was doing exactly what I should be doing. And I probably should have done it years before.
HARVEY: So I walked out that door with a certificate and, haven't looked back since.
STYNES (Voiceover): Kerryn started a personal fitness business and created a space for older women to come together, exercise and support each other.
HARVEY: I sort of feel like we're all growing older together because I've been training with some of them for, well, since I started now, so nearly 10 years. so we're sort of going through the whole menopause thing together. We're all got aging parents or they've passed away. We're all at the same phase of life. I think that's really developed into a really good community. We socialize outside of training, and we've got this great little WhatsApp group. If someone's looking for something, you know, whether it's, a recipe, or whatever it is, some help around at home or whatever, we all, we all communicate together all the time and help each other out with, with everything. So it's far more than just training. It's become a really solid community and I, I honestly, I don't think I could live without them now. They've been so helpful to me over the years. They're, they're just amazing. I just, I love them to bits.
STYNES: What have you learned from the women that you train?
HARVEY: Uh, how cheeky they all are still, despite the fact that they should all too old or old enough to know better. Uh, look, I, I guess I learned from them every day. Everyone's dealing, uh, in my group like there's been a lot of traumas outside of mine in that group of people. And it's been interesting following them through their traumas and helping them out any way I can. But what I've learned is how strong these ladies are. You know, they're all dealing with their own things in their lives with their kids and their parents and aging parents their own physical health, mental health as well, especially over COVID. And they're all capable and they're all a lot more capable than they think they are.
STYNES: As a personal trainer, what's your advice to people listening who are approaching or past their menopause?
HARVEY: You have to keep moving. Strength training becomes even more imperative as you get older because our bones get weaker and more brittle. So we always want to have a nice little muscle mass around them to keep everything strong. Your posture changes a bit too. We see the little old ladies walking around, I'm talking about 80s and whatever, and they're all hunched over, probably haven't done a day of exercise in their life, some of them. So it's really important to, to keep nice and strong and agile, and functional. So, everything we do is going to get harder as we get older. So we want to make sure we can still get down on the ground, get up off the ground. Um, pick up heavy things, put things in the freezer that might be up above your head. We want to be strong and be able to do that for as long as possible.
STYNES: Also, I mean, this is my own personal experience, is that mental health payoff of just doing something every day that makes you feel good in your body.
HARVEY: Absolutely, you also need some other thing which is where you're giving back something, I think, to the community and to society. For me it was obviously my charity, for other people might be volunteering, or just helping out friends, family. And also I think it's, it's important to sort of keep in the workforce as well, and keep contributing in some way, shape or form. So I think it's a combination of factors, that together, I reckon we'll see you well, well into older age until we can't do those things anymore. My plan is to keep going until I can't do it anymore. I think somebody will probably scrape me off the ground and into a box, uh, while I'm training someone. That’s my plan.
STYNES (Voiceover): The charity Kerryn mentioned was called Start Foundation. She created this with her sister in law, Michelle, after recovering from her accident. And they ran it from 2013, until 2022.
HARVEY: Just after I came out of hospital, I had this really big burning desire that I wanted to give something back after everything I'd been through and the amount of help I got from just, it wasn't just tens of people. It was hundreds of people, in the medical world, obviously, but also my family, my friends, my whole network just came out from everywhere and just contributed into my getting well, and getting on with life. And I couldn't have done it without any of them. So I really wanted to do something to give back.
(Music)
STYNES (Voiceover): The foundation's goal was to help other amputees get back into sport.
HARVEY: We had this crazy idea that we wanted to start and empower amputees in life through sport, we thought, well, how are we going to raise some money? We've sort of set up this charity, through some great help, but we needed to obviously fundraise. So I had this idea, and I'd had this idea for years, I still really wanted to achieve it, even as an amputee, that I wanted to do it.
I wanted to ride across the Nullarbor to fundraise, start in Perth and finish in Melbourne and ride through Adelaide and stop in at the hospital and give a big thank you to those people there, like all the staff that were involved when I was there. It was 3,600 kilometers. It took us five weeks. We had a few multi-day stops, but most of the time we're getting back on the bike every day, riding up to 200 kilometers. And we rode via, came in via Adelaide, which I think took us about three and a half weeks, maybe more to get to Adelaide. We rode into that hospital under police escort. They had all the lights on green for us, so we just rode straight through the city and rode to the hospital and there was so many people from that hospital that had been involved in my care waiting for us to arrive. It almost brings a tear to my eye thinking about it actually. It was just the most amazing experience.
It was just a great way just to say thank you. Look what you've done. Look at me now. I've just ridden halfway across the country because of you guys. You had belief that I would survive and you made sure I did. Yeah, so it's just a great way to say thanks and a great way to raise some money and get Start Foundation on the map.
What we also did there though, is we donated part of our fundraising to the Royal Adelaide Hospital. So we gave them a dirty big cheque to go towards a research project for patients in ICU just to enable a better recovery hopefully for in the future. So we did that and then the balance of the money was enabled us to then get Start Foundation up and running and start dishing out grants. So we spent another week from Adelaide riding back to Melbourne. So five weeks all up. Which was extraordinary. It was such a massive undertaking, but probably one of the best experiences of my life.
STYNES: Who is it important for you to be seen by?
HARVEY: A key turning point for me in getting well was, accepting myself the way I am in this newly acquired disability. So I'd like anyone who's been through any adversity to understand that, you can do it. You know. You might not be able to change what's happened, but there's definitely going to be more in your life that's going to be great. So anyone who needs to hear that, I hope those people see me.
STYNES: What wisdom would you share with your younger self?
HARVEY: You're gonna come across some real crap in your life. You’re gonna have some huge downers, and it will not be the end of the world. You're going to be able to work your way through those and there will be an end. It's going to challenge you, you're going to grow from it, and you might have to work really hard to come out the other side, but you'll find a way. And when you come out that other side, you'll be a better person, and there'll potentially be a lot of new opportunities will have opened up for you. So don't give up, you know, push through when it gets hard, because times will be better.
(Theme music)
STYNES (Voiceover): From artist Lindy Lee to world champion surfer Pauline Menczer, every inspiring woman we’ve spoken to on this season of SEEN has had to overcome heartache and adversity.
But around them all has been a healthy garden of connection to other people.
And that’s one of the most important things we need for a healthy older age. Every person’s garden of friendship is different, and the way we gather people around us - is different. For Duang, it’s through food that she found her community in Castlemaine. For Crystal Love Johnson and her community of Sistagirls, it was how they show up for and celebrate each other.
But if you’re thinking, I wanna grow old with radiance and love - think about how you’re building connection. Plant those seeds.
This has been SEEN, hosted by me, Yumi Stynes, and produced by Audiocraft in collaboration with SBS.
From Audiocraft, Season 3 of SEEN was produced by Laura Brierley Newton and Olivia O'Flynn.
Sound design and mix is done by Ravi Gupta and Executive Producer is Lorna Clarkson and Kate Montague.
The SBS team are Joel Supple and Max Gosford with special thanks to Caroline Gates.
Our podcast artwork is created by Evi-O Studios.
And music is by Yeo.
SEEN’s original concept was by Bernadette Phương Nam Nguyễn.
