I was very unprepared. I was unskilled. I can honestly say you need a skill. You need to develop some skills to be a carer. So I felt like I was in the deep end.Najla Turk
Hosted by Yumi Stynes, SEEN is a podcast series about the trailblazers who persist and succeed without positive role models in mainstream culture. In this season you'll meet trailblazers like pro surfer Pauline Menczer, renowned artist Lindy Lee, community chef Duang Tengritrat, Tiwi Island Sistagirl Crystal Love Johnson, and more. Hear how these women defy convention as they grow older.
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LISTEN TO
Najla Turk: Realising that to be a carer for others, you have to care for yourself
SBS Audio
30:03
Credits
Host: Yumi Stynes
Producers: Laura Brierley Newton, Olivia O'Flynn
Sound Design and Mix: Ravi Gupta
Executive Producer: Kate Montague and Lorna Clarkson
Theme Music: Yeo
Art: Evi O Studios
SBS Team: Joel Supple, Max Gosford and special thanks to Caroline Gates
Original concept by: Bernadette Phương Nam Nguyễn
Transcript
NAJLA TURK: It wasn't until I had my three daughters and I heard a quote that said, you educate a man, you educate one person.You educate a woman or female, you educate a tribe, community, a nation. And the penny dropped for me and I went, wait a minute, I'm a mother. I have three daughters. I've got to get my act together. I can go back and study. I should be one step ahead of my daughters to empower them, to support them on their journey.
(Theme music)
YUMI STYNES (Voiceover): I'm Yumi Stynes and in this season of SEEN, I'm talking to trailblazing women who are in their third act. Women who have lived full lives, done amazing things - from becoming World Champion surfers - to embarking on the most ambitious and expensive art commission this country has ever seen - and found a fresh sense of purpose in their older years.
We start by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land on which we record... the Gamaragal [Cammeraygal] people and Gadigal people, and their elders past and present.
I’m loving doing this podcast because it’s acknowledging something I feel like a lot of us are in denial about: That we will grow old!
Yes we will!
And with that come some guarantees - wrinkles and grey hair... and that people we love might need our care, and will die one day.
Those people include …our parents.
Our guest today is community leader and educator Najla Turk.
She has a fascinating story of overcoming obstacles to keep evolving, learning and experiencing delight - well into her third act.
We begin Najla’s story with an inspiring death.
(Music)
TURK: My father needed 24-7 care, and he never ever wanted to go to a nursing home. He's always said, I don't want to go to a nursing home, I'd rather die than be put there. And we made the promise that we'd never put him there. But he needed the 24-7 care. How do you support him 24 seven? I couldn't do it. My sister couldn't do it. My siblings, my other siblings couldn't do it. So the family pitched in. So we had something like 17 members of our family - the grandchildren, friends - we did 24 hour shifts. And we just all had like two hour roster or afternoon. And everybody came and we all supported him.
STYNES: That's so beautiful.
TURK: So he was given quality care. He was dignified. He was respected. He was honoured. Because it's being of service as humans. We have so much joy in being, in doing acts of service….. and help with their quality of life to the end.
YUMI STYNES (Voiceover): The way Najla, her family and their community supported her father’s transition is a story we can all learn from.
And it’s fitting we learn from it because Najla’s life has been one of continuous learning, teaching, and purpose.
Najla Turk is many things - a woman, wife, mother, daughter, friend, and community leader. But started as an Aussie-born Lebanese kid growing up in the suburbs.
TURK: As a child, you don't think differently. And you fit in and life is great because you're surrounded by family and extended family and events and festivals and it's just very warm and nurturing. It wasn't until I got older that I looked back and reflected on my life and I realised that I was a misfit.
STYNES: You've described yourself as bicultural, which I don't, it's a phrase I don't hear very often. Being born in Australia, but Lebanese culturally, it's like you're straddling these two identities all the time. Which parts of each culture do you love or hate the most?
TURK: What I love about the western world that I live, is independence - the right to speak out, freedom of choice. Absolutely love that. That I am my own person, that I can be authentic and genuine. I can share thoughts and I can own my uniqueness. I love that.
What I love about culture is that we're together. There's this collective camaraderie. You can reach out to anybody and they're there for you. You have a baby, first six weeks of your life, you're supported, people cook for you, they check in on you. That's just, that's absolutely beautiful.
When my father passed away, I wanted to grieve on my own, but there's hundreds of people at the funeral, and I just felt so supported. And I thought, do I really want to grieve on my own? No, that's the western, wanting to grieve on my own, you know, detaching and withdrawing from the community. And that's what I found beautiful. And culturally, we live intergenerationally. So we're caring for our elders. The elders have a position, there's purpose for them. And I love that. In the western world, there is no position, so your elders are forgotten.
So there's pros and cons for each culture. So I love both those aspects,
YUMI STYNES (Voiceover): The gift that comes with existing across multiple cultural identities - is that you have perspective on both. You can see the beauty and the flaws.
TURK: What I don't love about being western is that you've got to live like a, you know, like you've got to be very macho and you've gotta survive, you’ve gotta be strong and you've gotta to be an independent woman. And especially my caring role that I have to have to become the man and the woman now because I'm caring for my husband. So yes I feel like I'm too strong for my own liking.
STYNES: Last time I went to Japan, I was, it was commented to me that I'm very strong and they were, they went like this with their shoulders, like a gorilla lady. And I kind of went, yeah, that's definitely the Western side of me coming out. It's certainly not a Japanese trait, is it?
TURK: Yes that’s right.
STYNES: But I've never interpreted as to be macho. It's just, um, just being a tough bitch because you have to be sometimes.
YUMI STYNES (Voiceover): Common to the migrant experience all over the world - is an almost fanatical, fundamental emphasis placed by elders on the value of education.
TURK: I remember clearly going to year seven, very proud of my achievements because I worked very hard through primary school. And then I was asked to attend a meeting and in that meeting was the year coordinator and maybe the deputy principal. And they said to me, one question - what's the difference between a horse and a donkey?
And I visualised the two animals, I gave a response, very proud of myself. And I went home that afternoon. The next morning I was yanked out of my class and put in ESL, English for students of a second language. And I was in there for a few years and it was quite traumatising because I was in there for new migrants who had just arrived to Australia. And I couldn't understand why.
My dad was from a very poverty stricken area in Lebanon. He never had an education. And he would say he'd walk past the school and envy the kids on the inside because he couldn't afford a uniform and shoes or books or pens.
So his highest value was education and he wanted that for his children. So he came to Australia with my mother and my sister for a better life, Land of Opportunities. And so he worked very hard as a migrant. He worked for six and a half days and he wanted nothing more than his children to get an education.
So here I am striving to make him proud and in year seven, I take a step backwards, not a step forward.
YUMI STYNES (Voiceover): This step backwards was a profound blow to Najla’s sense of personal power. What is the difference between a horse and a donkey? And could you explain that in your first language - let alone your second language?
TURK: I had aspirations of going to university and at that time, going back in the seventies, most people left at year 10 and they went off and did a trade. So I didn't want to leave Year 10, I wanted to go on to university.
And I was one of the selective few that was able to achieve Year 12. But on the day of my exam, my very first exam, and this is why I'm an advocate for students who do HSC and I understand the stress, I fainted in my HSC paper.
STYNES: What?
TURK: I fainted. My very first paper, I think, not even, they didn't even set the timer, I remember looking up and saying, why is it so warm in this room?
TURK: And I woke up in casualty.
STYNES: No.
TURK: I don't remember anything in between.
STYNES: You got taken to the hospital?
TURK: Yes, on my first day of the exam, and they sedated me and I missed three exams.
STYNES: They sedated you?
TURK: I got sedated. I was sedated because of my anxiety.
STYNES: Najla you must have been so stressed out.
TURK: I must have been. I didn't realize. And my father said, well your goal for university is gone. It's his goal as well. Like I was studying so hard for the family.
YUMI STYNES (Voiceover): It seems incredible now, but there was no second chance. Fainting from anxiety as a child and winding up in hospital was not considered a reasonable excuse for missing three exams, and so Najla's dreams of going to university were over.Since recording this interview, I’ve reflected on this absolute travesty. More than forty years ago, maybe a different set of parents could have argued for Najla, advocated for her, fought and pushed for her to resit her exams. But the systemic obstacles for two parents who couldn’t speak English, who did not have the entitlement that a white, English speaking parent might have had, who didn’t know what channels were open, and crucially…who had a deference to institutions and their authority.She didn’t stand a chance. The institutions were not built to support people like Najla.From this utter devastation, life nonetheless continued.
TURK: The discussion around marriage, because it's all about fertility in the Arabic family. And yeah, this beautiful man came into my life and I've been married ever since.
My father's one of eight. My mother's one of ten. I ended up with three children. The community thought I had fertility issues. We had three by choice. So even to this very day, they say Oh, you have fertility issues.
YUMI STYNES (Voiceover): Najla took on the huge role that is parenthood. It was a joyful time.
But something that could never be quieted was the call to learn - to formally learn and experience the privilege of being taught.
TURK: It wasn't until I had my three daughters and I heard a quote that said, you educate a man, you educate one person.You educate a woman or female, you educate a tribe, community, a nation. And the penny dropped for me and I went, wait a minute. It's like it gave me permission. I said oh, wait a minute. I'm a mother. I have three daughters. I've got to get my act together. I can go back and study. I should be one step ahead of my daughters to empower them, to support them on their journey.
YUMI STYNES (Voiceover): At 37, finally surrendering to her purpose, Najla went back to school.
TURK: And I went back to TAFE. University was definitely out of the question, because my negative self-talk was I’m not good enough. I'm from an ethnic family. I was put in ESL for years. I can't write essays, um I'm dumb, all the rest of it. So that was the narrative that was running through the back of my mind. So I did TAFE. And I started off, just with the Statement of Attainment. And then I did Cert I. And I thought, oh, okay, I'm enjoying this, I'll go back and do Cert II and Cert III. And I did Cert IV, an Advanced Diploma. And that was when my children said to me, are you going to stop here or are you going to keep going? And I thought, well, I may as well, because I want to be a step ahead of them - if I'm going to empower these young women to be independent and to be liberated and to be successful, I need to keep going.
STYNES: So your, the motivation for you was to have something to be able to impart to your three daughters?
TURK: A hundred per cent, a hundred per cent, because we know that there's so many opportunities out there for the men, so many opportunities and women do have the shortest straw and we're in a world that's constantly changing. It is all about adaptability and education is a tool.
STYNES: How did you feel sitting in those classes, starting to gather up knowledge?
TURK: It's exhilarating. I have an addiction for knowledge. I'm a seminar junkie. Even after I finished TAFE, I'm attending all these different seminars. I enrolled in a course only yesterday. I just love learning.
YUMI STYNES (Voiceover): So Najla completed her TAFE certificates, and then she went to university where she did a Bachelor of Vocational Education and Training. And then her Master of Management.
STYNES: How did being educated later in life change you?
TURK: Um, it changed because I made the choice. I didn't follow a system. It wasn't high school. Then stepping stone is, uh, TAFE or university. I've lived life. So when I started, studying as a mature age, it was a conscious decision. I was inspired, motivated, I was driven. So there's my goal. I had a goal, I had a vision. Yes, there was challenges, but I had a driver. And the driver for me was obviously to support my children, to give them a better life, give them choices, to role model. So as a mature age, it was um, I couldn't have done it if I was any younger. I would have failed.
YUMI STYNES (Voiceover): Najla got a job at TAFE as their Institute of Multicultural Education Coordinator, where she became a conduit between the staff and students with migrant backgrounds.In other words? She found work within the institutions to help and see people like the younger Najla.
Her husband was incredibly supportive, making sure Najla's lunch was packed and the girls were ready for school each day.
But her parents didn't know.
STYNES: And is it true that you lied about having a job?
TURK: I did.
STYNES: You actually concealed that you were working.
TURK: A hundred per cent I did.
STYNES: How long did you keep up the ruse?
TURK: It’d be a couple of years.
STYNES: Yeah, okay.
TURK: Because they'd say to me, oh, we haven't been seeing you. I'd say, yeah, because I've been doing volunteering work at the school. But I was actually working.
STYNES: Getting paid.
TURK: Yes.
STYNES: And what was their reaction when they discovered your lie?
TURK: Oh, it was fine.
STYNES: Was it?
TURK: Yeah, yeah. It was big in my head. That was, yeah. They were actually proud.
YUMI STYNES (Voiceover): Someone who fainted in a high school exam from stress, who knew on a molecular level how important it is to be educated, Najla was now the educator.
TURK: I have a very deep desire to learn and impart knowledge and share what I'm learning. So now when I teach younger, you know, like in the class that I had this week, a 25 year old said to me, I don't know what I want. I said, what have you been doing? He said, oh, I've done a bit of carpentry, a bit of cleaning, gardening, but I don't know what I want. And I said, it's so normal at 25. It's so, so normal. And so people will find a career path, and my experience has been they will study or they'll work, and when they get to around the 40 mark, then they'll go through this midlife crisis where they now want to live a life of passion. So they may have a career change. This all happens in adulthood. And adulthood is a mature age that I'm in. So in the beginning if the skills aren't there. You're just doing because community have told you or family have told you or you're following somebody's footsteps, or you think this is your career pathway. But it's not until you're a mature age, and you realize it aligns with my purpose.
YUMI STYNES (Voiceover): And in this new calling, Najla felt like she'd found a true purpose - teaching, educating, advocating.
Her father had passed, but she was thriving - a working mother who had gone up against a system that did not support her needs - but managed to overcome and succeed anyway.(Music)
But one day, the whole earth tilted on its axis. Her husband was diagnosed with early onset dementia when he was in his 50s.
TURK: In the beginning, I didn't want anyone knowing my husband had dementia. I couldn't even say the D word. I couldn't say it. We're all in denial. He was devastated. He said, wait a minute. I'm so young.
So he was experiencing anxiety and he started panicking and he just couldn't process it. And then my daughters and myself, we had to, you know, talk it through, try and process. So we all came to terms with it at different times. And my journey has been one of resentment, unfortunately. Um, I'm not proud to say that I just was so annoyed with him. I was like, how can you get sick? We had, you know, goals for the future, travel, retirement, grandkids. Um, I never in my wildest dreams expected to be a carer, a full time carer.
YUMI STYNES (Voiceover): Data shows that caring work falls disproportionately on women. 7 in 10 primary carers are womenThis work is generally unpaid, invisible, and saves the government a lot of money.A report commissioned by Carers Australia in 2020 said that were the Government to pay for all of the informal care provided by Australia’s unpaid family and friend carers, it would cost just under $1.5 billion dollars per week.Najla is one of those carers.
TURK: And I just thought it was like a thankless job.
STYNES: Oh yeh.
TURK: Because there's a saying, as you know, in the wedding vows in the western world is that, um, I had it written here… to have and to hold from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, until death do us part.
I was speaking to other carers, they said, this isn't for me, I can't, we can't do this. They’d suggest I should put him in a nursing home. Well, I didn't do it for my dad. And that is not an option for me. And so when I was getting support from Dementia Australia, they would just keep saying over and over again, have you considered putting him in a nursing home, in a facility? And I went, no, I just need the skills to cope with this massive transition, change in my world where I have now become, I have now a dependent upon me. Whereas I was independent. So that threat, was perceived threat of losing my independence, was huge for me.
(Music)
YUMI STYNES (Voiceover): In 2024, 11.9 per cent of Australians self-reported as carers - that's 3 million people. And of the 1.2 million primary carers reported in Australia, 43.8 per cent had a disability themselves.
And yet, so much of caring remains invisible labour. Which has huge economic impacts for the people - largely women - who take on these roles. There's the loss of income, loss of superannuation, loss of freedom, and the social isolation.
The combination of financial pressures, and feeling unsupported and unseen leads to carers commonly suffering from poor mental health.
58 per cent of carers reported a ‘low wellbeing’ in Carer's Australia 2024 report.
Najla's first experience of caring - for her father - was filled with support from the community, everyone pitching in to look after him.
But in her husband's case, Najla felt like it was her burden alone.
TURK: I was very unprepared. I was unskilled. I can honestly say you need a skill. You need to gain some, develop some skills to be a carer. So I felt like I was in the deep end. I got thrown in the deep end and I was constantly calling Dementia Australia. And I would call them from the laundry in the middle of the night, 2am in the morning. So they provided support 24-7, and I'd be in tears and say, Oh, but he did this and he did that. And I was seeing different things. I didn't realise that I thought dementia was memory, but it was more than memory. His behavior, his mood changed and he was getting angry and, and, um, you know, tapping on the table or frowning. And his voice was very coarse. And what, you know, it's turned into a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Cause he was one person with me and another person with his family, with his children. So with me, he was incompetent, couldn't do a thing. But with his children, he was remembering and he was happy and projecting there's nothing wrong with him.
STYNES: Oh, well that's really tricky.
TURK: That messed with my head.
STYNES: I bet. So do you have a theory on why he would show that side of himself to you, but not to your daughter?
TURK: That's interesting because I actually met somebody who used to work for Dementia Australia and she asked me the question, as a carer, do you find that he's one person with you and another person with others? And I went Oh, this is, she validated me. I said, yes, yes. She said, cause they have insight - they know exactly when to, they can be safe around you and be themself and demonstrate, you know, fear, anger, all the rest of it. And they want you to solve their problem. They want you to rescue them. They need you to be present. They need you.
STYNES: This is a full time job.
TURK: It's a full time job. Yeah. A hundred per cent. But you've got to do what you've got to do because they're dependent on us.
STYNES: Tell me what are the biggest challenges for you taking on this caring role?
TURK: It's having to adapt, because once I get to my peak performance I'm like, great, I've mastered this. Then he takes another turn and I see other symptoms. It's been a journey. I must admit, I've shed a lot of tears. I mean obviously I'm in acceptance because I didn't realise that, it wasn't until I was seeing a counsellor, that um, it's grief, I'm going through the journey of grief. So it's called anticipatory grief, that you know the health is deteriorating and you're grieving every day.
YUMI STYNES (Voiceover): Anticipatory grief is the name for when you start to experience feelings of loss and grief before the loss actually happens.
Like watching a loved one disappear into dementia.
STYNES: Where do you find support?
TURK: Um, I think I'm my greatest support. I have to be cause nobody can support me the way I want to be supported. Sadly. And I think that's the biggest message as a carer is that you know, you're going to find that inner strength. Because people just accept that you’re a carer and have no idea what you're going through. Unless they live your life 24-7, looking from the outside in, they have no idea. I take my scarf off to every woman or every man that's caring for a loved one because now I know. I've had people in the community who looked after, you know, they've been in a caring role and you just think that they're doing their job and they're going over and above and they're committed but you just don't know the depth of what it does to you as an individual.
YUMI STYNES (Voiceover): Najla's experience has inspired her to help others in caring roles.
She has become an advocate for carers and their rights, speaking publicly about the need for carers to have more support.
Just as she wanted to be a role model for her daughters, today she thinks about what kind of role model she wants to be for other carers. And it’s a mindset that requires more growth. More learning.
TURK: So now that I'm a carer, I'm role modeling selflessness. That's not a good thing when you're selfless. Now I'm learning to be selfish, you know, it's the oxygen mask analogy. If you don't put the oxygen on yourself, how can you help those around you? So that's been my biggest hurdle at the moment as a carer. Like how do I detach from this conditioning? I've been hardwired to believe that a woman's role is to be serving others and putting herself last, whether it's meals, she'd be the last one to set the table, last one to eat, always the first one to get up. My mom was my role model. And that was what I saw. And that's what I aspired to do. And I got a sense of satisfaction and pride knowing I raised my daughters the way my mother raised me. And I'm looking for my children, my daughters to raise their children the way I raised them. So I can see - and it's a sad thing that my children are doing exactly what I did, which is exactly what my mother did. And now I'm saying to them, are you silly? Are you crazy? Like, can you pull back? Stop giving. Like, where are you? Where do you fit into the picture? Put yourself into the frame. But they're not. Because they’re like thank you, mum, you conditioned us. And we gotta break this cycle.
YUMI STYNES (Voiceover): Breaking the cycle is hard. But I think a huge misconception about aging is that old people get stuck in their ways and can't change. But I know that’s not true. Najla is proof.
TURK: Because of the caring role and because of my cultural background that I need to be present, constantly present. And we talk about respite, where would I go? You know, I can't leave him. No one's going to care for him as good as I can care for him. But I was able to overcome that hurdle because it's a mindset. Why can't I? I challenged my thinking. Because I didn't want to experience grief, um, or guilt. You know, that I'm away from him, that he needs me. I hate to think that, you know, because he's non verbal, that he's resenting me for not being present.
But I got an opportunity to go overseas, my daughter lives overseas, and she's like, Mum, it's fine. My siblings will look after him. And I just said to her, I'm far too exhausted to leave. I can't imagine packing, or leaving, or going on the plane, because I've overgiven, like my tank is empty. So even the thought of going and, and getting respite was overwhelming. And she said, this is why you're coming. So I was very blessed that she bought a ticket to make it happen. And for the first day, I felt a little bit uncomfortable. And then I thought to myself, Do you know, this is really important for me, because now I've given, I've given everything I've got, and I'm running on empty. And I, because… if I'm not careful, I may end up at the cemetery. And then he'd be looked after in a facility. So I owe it to him. And I owe it to myself.
(Music)
And so I had the best two weeks. I just switched off. I said, that's it. I don't have any responsibilities. And I just lived in the moment. And I was just a different person when I came back and I'm still running on high.
So my advice to everybody would be take a break, go international, get out of the country, let go of your responsibilities. Because you owe it to yourself.
STYNES: That's magic.
TURK: Yes.
STYNES: Wow.
TURK: And I'm planning on going again next year.
STYNES: What is the secret source to aging well?
TURK: Interest thing to say is it’s about giving, I feel it's also about receiving. I feel to age well, we need to give ourself first and foremost time.
STYNES: Yep.
TURK: Yeah. It's so important to be, to connect with me, to do the inner work. To question what am I feeling? What do I want? What makes me happy?
STYNES: Do you pray?
TURK: Hundred per cent.
STYNES: Is it a daily practice?
TURK: Five times a day.
STYNES: That's a lot.
TURK: It is, but it's only a few minutes. And the reason why we pray is just to keep us in conscious awareness, to be thankful, to be in a state of gratitude. So you might dip emotionally or mentally, and then when you pray, it's, Oh, what am I complaining about? I'm in a state of gratitude. Like life is good. And to be honest with you, life is good. But how many of us are seeing ourself in that light?
STYNES: So prayer takes you to a place of thankfulness.
TURK: Gratitude. Yes. Yeah. Thankfulness. Blessing.
STYNES: How has your attitude to life changed from when you were, say, in your 20s?
TURK: Oh, I don't even recognize the person I was in my twenties. I don't recognize her. I don't really want to be that woman. Cause I just feel that, you know, we talk about empowerment and even though I was quite strong in my twenties, I'm fierce now. I'm extremely fierce. I'm very, very determined. I'm in my sixties and I have a vision, a massive vision and I'm on the journey so nothing's going to stop me. I feel blessed that I've made great choices, some good, some bad, some highs and some lows, but it's shaped who I am today and I just love where I'm at and I want to empower every individual to step up and own their power.
YUMI STYNES (Voiceover): How great is the fierce and unstoppable Najla Turk? And how great to understand that we can consciously choose to put ourselves first… even after a lifetime of conditioning…!
By the way, the difference between a donkey and a horse is in the details. Their ears and tails are different. And basically a donkey is more goofy-looking, and a horse is more elegant. A donkey doesn’t have a flight response, it will freeze when in danger, whereas a horse will bolt. As if I’d have been able to explain that without googling!
This has been SEEN, hosted by me, Yumi Stynes, and produced by Audiocraft in collaboration with SBS.
From Audiocraft, Season 3 of SEEN was produced by Laura Brierley Newton and Olivia O'Flynn.
Sound design and mix is done by Ravi Gupta and Executive Producer is Lorna Clarkson and Kate Montague.
The SBS team are Joel Supple and Max Gosford with special thanks to Caroline Gates.
Our podcast artwork is created by Evi-O Studios.
And music is by Yeo.
SEEN’s original concept was by Bernadette Phương Nam Nguyễn.
