Mianne: I don't know many other transsexual women, for example, but the few I do know, we know there are some places that are reserved for women that we won't go. We don't have rights to be a voice for women. Yes, we're living as women, but that's not, we've had our own journey and have that respect for women, and that mutual respect has existed, and that's now been pretty much destroyed. And now society is understandably having a backlash.

Kumi: Hi, I'm Kumi Taguchi. Welcome to Insightful.

Mianne: It almost becomes to be anyone with blue hair that doesn't agree with their observed sex at birth, and you're trans.

Kumi: Mianne Bagger transitioned in the 90s. In 2004, she became the first openly transitioned woman to play in a professional golf tournament.

Mianne: I clearly wasn't as strong, and I knew that was the case also just with general life, and the girls got to meet me as well and play against me and could see my game was no different.

Kumi: What struck me is how incredibly honest Mianne is and thoughtful.

Mianne: I was just surviving. This wasn't working, I was dying, I was suffocating.

Mianne: I'd rather live.

Kumi: And he is one of those people who's constantly learning and evolving.

Kumi: Mianne, it's so great to see you again. Welcome.

Mianne: Thank you for the invitation.

Kumi: You transitioned in 1992. When did you become aware of your gender identity issues?

Mianne: From my earliest memories is about 7 or 8 years old, and you know, it's really hard to,

Mianne: Explain or define what that is. It's just an awareness that happens, and a common thing I'll relate to is maybe left or right-handed, you know, it's not something that people chose, it's just something people are. And if you ask people when did you know you were left or right-handed, well,

Mianne: You don't, you just are, and for me as well, that's just my earliest recollections, and it's more an awareness of maybe somehow being different, having different likes, not having things in common with other kids or other boys at the time.

Mianne: So you go on this, you, you start this journey of self-discovery going, what's going on? Why do I feel like this is, this isn't like everyone else?

Kumi: Can you think of specific things that you liked or disliked that made you feel that difference?

Mianne: It seems superficial to pinpoint specific things. A bit like the rough and tumble play of boys, you know, doing rugby and, and all of that kind of thing, and, and, and rough sports. I hated it.

Mianne: And I remember going through early stages of high school in the UK and then because I've always been good at sports, being kind of athletic, good at hand-eye coordination.

Mianne: And then I was almost kind of mandated in school to join the rugby team, and I thought, oh God. And that's pretty rough tackling and whatever. And I hated it. I think I played two matches and I always came out with a horrible headache and getting beaten around, and I hated it. But it's not to belittle and say, oh, there must be some gender issue, because I don't like playing rough and tumble sports. You know, it's not as, it's not that simplistic. It is far more complex.

Mianne: And that, and it's kind of a whole package, if you like. It is just an inner sense and this is a kind of an affinity with more things that girls liked and a, and a yearning for that. And I, I don't know what it was. A lot of disconnect from things that a lot of boys did, and just an internal sense of self. There's also that physical feeling of self, the physical wrongness of the body, so it's also an internal thing.

Kumi: You describe yourself as transsexual. How is that different to transgender? I'm so interested in this terminology.

Mianne: I know. It's become such a melting pot these days. It used to have trans or transgender came about because it was a bit of a softer term than transsexual. I always hated the term just because of the connotations that it contained the word sex or sexual, which was fine, but now, of course, we were in this.

Mianne: Weird climate today of well which has amounted to gender activists and everything being lumped under the trans label. It almost becomes to be anyone with blue hair that doesn't agree with their observed sex at birth, and you're trans, and then transsexual people that, let's say be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, I'll put that in quotes, whatever that might mean, because that might be fluid as well. But we've at the time had a recognised psychological condition.

Mianne: And have then gone through medical treatment to allay that discomfort and for the vast majority of us it's

Mianne: Quite successful, it's quite an appropriate treatment and enables us to get on with life. So transsexual refers to someone diagnosed with gender dysphoria and then going through the medical treatment of hormone therapy and then eventual surgical intervention, and then get on with life. And trans and transgender now doesn't even involve any medical intervention whatsoever, so we're going into the self ID and it's it.

Mianne: It's almost become meaningless, but unfortunately there are so many people in the trans category and so few in the transsexual category that we barely have a voice in this big screaming and noise that's going on in the public domain by gender activists that we end up not having a voice and we just fade into the background, but we also then end up getting tarred with the same brush as all the gender activists and you kind of understand.

Mianne: The standoff position that a lot of people in society might have, and it's like, and people don't understand the difference and don't know the difference, and I think that's why it's also important to have a bit of a voice like you're giving me now as well, to hopefully provide a bit of a, an explanation or clarity in the difference of these terms and provide that separation or that difference.

Kumi: What voice are you losing by being under that same umbrella?

Mianne: It's not so much about losing a voice, but we've also had, we, we've almost had a, a definition imposed on us. Like we're some radical or we want to demand society bend over to our whims and do whatever we say. That's not what we're about. The vast majority

Mianne: of transsexual men and women, we basically merge into life. We work out how do we merge, respectfully merge into life with everyone else and also almost have this mutual respect with society. And for decades prior to this, that mutual respect has existed.

Mianne: Women and men know this happens, but we go through a transition and then we carry on. We go and get work, and we have friends and boyfriends and girlfriends and whatever it is, some get married and get on with life, and then everyone's happy, and we also know that there are just some places that we don't really have access to. I don't know.

Mianne: Many other transsexual women, for example. But the few I do know, we know there are some places, for example, that are reserved for women that we won't go. We won't take positions, for example, you know, Women of the Year or Sportswoman of the Year or whatever. It's like, we don't really have rights to that title. We don't have rights to be a voice for women.

Mianne: Yes, we're living as women, but that's not, we've had our own journey and have that respect for women, and that mutual respect has existed, and that's now been pretty much destroyed. And now everyone's society is understandably having a backlash, you know, access to toilets and changing rooms and, and taking a quite a crowbar approach.

Mianne: To go, that's it, no flexibility, that's it. Game's over, full restriction, and we're probably going to be impacted by that in some regard. But I think what'll happen quite likely, it'll drive transsexual men and women underground again to live, you know, stealth, to not be able to be open about our lives, which of us, a majority of us or many of us would be.

Mianne: Capable of doing, and it's just a difficult life to lead. I mean, I've really enjoyed being able to live my life openly and just have friends and people accept me for just who and what I am.

Mianne: Uh, so who knows what the future's gonna be like?

Kumi: I want to go to golf. When did you first pick up a golf club and what was it about golf that appealed to you?

Mianne: It was basically when my mum and dad started playing golf, and I was about, I think I was about 7 or 8 years old at the time. It's probably part of my personality, you know, golf is just such an individual sport. And I'm a technical and detailed kind of person as well. And if anyone that's played a lot of golf understands that it's not just something you don't just grab a stick and hit a ball and hit it where you want it, there's, it can get really, really complex and to get proficient.

Mianne: At it, it takes a lot of practise, a lot of effort, a lot of really focused and targeted effort and practise with all the the little details. And I think there was some part of golf that just appealed to me immediately, and it was a family thing, so we we then lived in Denmark. We lived in a street with two other families that were a member of the same golf club with their kids.

Mianne: And so a lot of weekends, particularly in summer, would be at the golf club, and it was filled with fun, so the kids we'd go running around, eating ice-cream, hitting balls on the range, putting, parents were out playing.

Kumi: Like a lot of pro players in their rookie year, Mianne's scores this summer have been less than stellar, but she staged a powerful comeback.

Kumi: You took a break from the sport while you transitioned, after your surgery, you returned to amateur golf this time in the women's division. Did the game feel any

Mianne: different? I just wanted to go back and play golf because I loved it and I missed it. Yeah, I joined a golf club and I was just doing my own thing.

Mianne: With my personality, I just like doing things well. So I started practising. I'd get there early and wanted to go and play golf well. And good players at golf clubs, they get noticed. So it didn't take long, a few people, you get to know a few people, and then I play with other people, my game gets better. And then someone approached me to join a local pennant team in Adelaide, a women's team.

Mianne: And of course that surprised me and I thought, really, I mean they all knew who I was. I was always open about my past even then.

Mianne: And they approached me regardless, and I did question, are you sure? Is that OK? And they go, yeah, yeah, and you know, we discussed it, it's happening around the country. So then I was asked to join a local pennant squad, and I was really tentative because I I was thinking, look, is this fair? Is this OK?

Mianne: And I stepped into it slowly and I got to play with some of the better players in the state.

Kumi: Jumping in there, did you express that feeling that you're having of, is this fair? Should I be doing this?

Mianne: Yes, I, I did because I did question if that was sure this is OK and they reassured me. So I played with some of the players and then playing some of these interclub competitions, I got to meet some of the better players in the state and then played a few more competitions and got to meet some of the better players in the country.

Mianne: And that's when I learned that my game was kind of average. I wasn't even among the longest hitters. And then I really tried, I'm gonna, you know, smash the ball, and there was plenty of girls, top ranked girls that were out hitting me and outplaying me.

Mianne: And I thought wow, well this seems OK and obviously this impact of transition has been very real because I know my game was was different after the impact of loss of testosterone.

Kumi: So you felt you weren't as strong as you had been.

Mianne: I clearly wasn't as strong, and I, I knew that.

Mianne: That was the case also just with general life. And the girls got to meet me as well and play against me and could see my game was no different. It was the same as anyone else, and I had to work just as hard as everyone else for my game to get better and to be competitive.

Mianne: But of course I'm just a sample size of one, you know, and they can't speak to populations. And so while me individually might have been OK, but that doesn't speak for the majority, and now the 20 years since that time has obviously been shining up.

Mianne: Brighter light on the issue where it has become problematic. Clearly this can't go unrestricted. There needs to be some rules in some context, even if it does mean the complete restriction, for example, to someone like me to uh women's competitive sport.

Kumi: If you felt like you had an advantage in a sport, would you withdraw yourself from a women's competition?

Mianne: Well, now I just, I, I won't go and compete. I won't go and play. I've sometimes thought about it. It would be really lovely, even just to play the Pro-Am series here in Australia. And I've got a good friend that I, I, I've known from amateur golf days, from the very beginning in playing state women's golf, who I've sometimes toured with. We've played a bit in Europe and we travelled in Australia. And, you know, she's asked if I'm gonna go and play.

Mianne: Uh, the next upcoming season. And as much as I'd love to, I have sometimes thought about it, because my game's still generally pretty good. I keep fit. Um, my game is good enough, but I, I just can't do it in principle, with everything that's going on in the country and globally, I can't do it. I like to consider that I go through life with some integrity, and it just wouldn't sit well with me, and I, as much as I'd like to, I, I just can't.

Kumi: In 2003, you had an emotional episode that you say changed your life. You were in your late thirties at the time. What happened?

Mianne: That was a really a weird period. I was still working full-time and I was obviously playing amateur golf.

Mianne: And it's just one of these things sometimes that happens in our lives, in the universe, things were coming to an end. One day I got home from work, sat down, shut the door, and I started crying. I just felt this overwhelm, and I just can't explain it. I don't know if it's an emotional breakdown or what do you, I don't know what to call it.

Mianne: But uh I've never experienced it before and I was crying and so I look, I made some dinner and I was crying, I ate dinner crying. I thought I'll go and have a shower and go to bed and I was crying. I went to bed, went to sleep crying.

Mianne: I finally slept and as soon as I woke up the next morning, I started crying, and I got ready and I thought what the hell is going on, like I, I just didn't understand it.

Mianne: And I thought, look, I'll just keep going and get into it, it'll probably wear off, and I was crying and I got in the car and I drove out of the gate and, you know, there was a car coming down the road. I'll quickly just nip out and onto the road, and I turned a bit sharply and smashed into a parked car, and, you know, smashed the front of my car up and I just, whatever, who cares, and I kept driving and I drove to work.

Mianne: I thought I'll get busy with work and I was still crying, and then I just, I had to go into to the office and just say, look, I don't know what's going on, but I can't stop crying.

Mianne: I'm gonna go.

Mianne: So I went home and then eventually it subsided, and it was just this, look, I'm a bit of a philosophical person and spiritual person in some sense, and,

Mianne: We have these times in life where it's like the universe is speaking to us, it's giving us a bit of a nudge. It's like, hey, are you listening here, and then it sort of pushes it a bit harder and then it gives us a punch in the face and the hints get harder and

Mianne: louder. Can you hear me? Because women's amateur golf was coming to an end. I was at the same job for 16 years, which was amazing.

Mianne: Amazing at doing research and development with, uh, loudspeakers, hi fi cinema speakers. Loved my job. I loved going to work every single day. Relationships weren't happening because I was opening about my life, and this was in Adelaide. It's a pretty small conservative city, so that wasn't happening. And kind of everything was like coming to a stop.

Mianne: And I wanted to go and see if I could pursue professional golf, because at the time I'd been playing amateur golf for a number of a few years and was on the state team, and I thought, look, I'm gonna see if I can do this.

Mianne: So that it basically started my journey, and I thought, whatever it is, I've got to get out of here. There's a big wide world out there, and I want to go and live life. I was in a place with a mortgage and a car loan and interest-free furniture, and there was no light at the end of the tunnel, and I thought, this isn't living. And I think I was probably feeling the suffocation of the restriction of this life, in quotes.

Mianne: And I thought, I'm not doing this, I need to live lives, and I don't know how I'm gonna do this. So I sold everything. I sold my house, car, furniture. I left my job because I couldn't just keep one bit because I needed a job to pay for the mortgage, but if I sold the house, well, I'll need somewhere to live if I'm gonna work, so I had to get rid of all of it.

Kumi: In what time frame did this happen?

Mianne: Pretty quickly, 3 to 6 months.

Kumi: Wow, I guess. It takes a lot of courage to do that.

Mianne: You know, it's really funny people use.

Mianne: With courage a lot with my life, which is lovely. But the analogy I always use, like, imagine you're in a small boat out a few kilometres out in the ocean and it sinks, and you're there floating in the water and you can see land just over there. Are you just gonna give up and drown, or are you gonna swim because you can see the land just there? And it's not brave. It's survival. And you just do it. That's what we do as humans. And that's all I was doing. I was just surviving. This wasn't working, I was dying. I was suffocating.

Mianne: I'd rather live. So I did what I needed to do to live, and it was just in a different journey because of my life, the way my life has gone. I haven't had the same kind of, I'll call it privileges in life as as other people. I don't just get to meet a guy and have an open relationship and see how it transpires. No, my past comes out.

Mianne: Most of the time they freak out and it all comes to a crashes in a burning heap. That's fine. I look, I get it. Uh, there's not a complaint about that. And with other journeys in life, there's always these restrictions or obstacles I have to overcome. So I decided, look, I'm gonna go and live life my way. I have to find my journey in life.

Mianne: And how I can walk my path, whatever that might be, but it's not going to be sitting in a house paying a mortgage when there's this big wide world out there, so I, I'm gonna go live life and if I'm gonna sort of have an early, an early demise, an early death, well let's at least give it a crack, and as they say, let's dive sliding into the grave kind of thing.

Mianne: So I wanted to see if I could change the rules of golf around the world, so I wrote to some of the main tours Europe, US and Australia, going, hey, they already knew who I was and I approached them and asked them about.

Mianne: Whether they would consider changing their rules, and it just happened to coincide with the IOC, the International Olympic Committee, first introducing their policy of sex reassignment in sport, which obviously made it easier for different sporting bodies to change their rules, and a long story short, I eventually ended up having rules changed in 6 countries on 3 continents.

Mianne: And then I was eligible to compete, and I went to the European tour, got my tour card and then had an 1112 year touring career ensued.

Kumi: How did you get them to change their mind?

Mianne: It wasn't about me getting them to change their mind.

Mianne: I just walked through life with honesty and integrity is generally how I put it. But I think it was important for me to go and meet them, sit face to face with someone. It's easy to have a, an opinion against someone when you're dealing with them remotely, but when you're sitting face to face, you get that human connection. And maybe it was unfair that I did it that way, cause it's a bit harder to cast someone off when they're sitting in front of you. But they'd seen me on TV, they knew who I was, and

Mianne: Just want to hear how I presented things.

Mianne: And well, they made their decisions without any

Mianne: I say, look, it's not like I was threatening them with legal action. That was never going to be a modus operandi of my journey into this. This was to be based on any knowledge of science or humanity at the time, which primarily it was whether misguided or not, they made the best decisions at that time.

Mianne: To my benefit.

Kumi: Have you ever wondered what your life would look like had you not had that emotional episode?

Mianne: No, I don't really entertain thoughts like that, I guess, because they're they're somewhat meaningless, you know, our life is what they are, and they're not any different.

Kumi: Now, it was hard to get you into the studio, Mianne, because we need to time you being in Sydney with your travels and the lifestyle you have, which is living in a caravan. Tell us about that lifestyle and, yeah, just tell us about your caravan maybe first and that lifestyle.

Mianne: So it's not a caravan, I live out of a van, a van, OK, so it's a small van. So when I was touring, obviously I sold everything and,

Mianne: I hadn't had a car for 18 years, you know, the government had closed down borders and we couldn't travel, and I needed to travel. So I bought a van and I converted it myself. You know, I do web development, so I set it up with a monitor so I can sit and work in my van. And I just need to have, I don't know what it is, again, my personality, uh, and I don't know if maybe it's a disorder I've got, but I need to keep moving, keep travelling, and I need to be in sunshine and warmth. It's just crucial to our health.

Mianne: But I love people and I love travelling new destinations. So now I generally go north in winter, obviously for sunshine, it just gets too cold down south. And I do different kind of work. I do obviously some web development. It's more of a, I don't know, what do we call it, a boutique web development business, just a personal connection with businesses and people. I'm a sometimes barista, so I work as a

Mianne: and places I'm a complete coffee snob. That's so good. Yeah, so I do some of that. I look, I've done hostel cleaning, cleaning jobs, and a bit of farm work and, and just go out and do new things. It's tied in also to changing our ideals because it's so easy to keep walking the same worn path. And as the saying goes, it's impossible to be a tourist in your own town.

Mianne: So I wanted to do new things and meet new people, so I had to get out of what was familiar to me and do new things. I'd never worked in a shop before.

Kumi: What do your family and friends think about how you live in your van?

Mianne: Huh? Well, my friends, you know, they love it, they think it's great. One thing I do love, you know, even when I was touring, because I would spend summer in Europe and summer in Australia, and people would often say, when I turn up, ohh, my Anna's here, it must be summer.

Mianne: And I love that. It's like, you're the season. I'm the sunshine. You're the sunshine. And I love that. I bring a different energy into places, and I like that I do that too. And when I go and stay with people, one of the things I love doing is coming in and cooking dinner, because I don't often get to use kitchens. I can cook out of my van and everything. It's all self-powered and all of that kind of thing. But there's nothing like using a proper big kitchen. So I come into people's homes and cook dinner a couple of times.

Kumi: Mianne, it is such a pleasure to see you again. Thank you so much for dropping in on your journey South.

Mianne: Thank you again, like, um, yeah, always love having a chat and thank you for the invitation thank you.