Di: What they were doing, which was so cruel in their mind, they were turning a child that they labelled as illegitimate into a legitimate child, a child that needed to be saved from the young, unmarried mother.

Kumi: You discovered that the baby you had been told had died at birth, was in fact alive. What was it like to learn that?

Di: I was trying to work out what happened. I was trying to remember to breathe again. I was also trying to work out how I would tell my other children and my family, because with this secret, to me, I hadn't told anyone.

Kumi: Hi, I'm Kumi Taguchi. Welcome to Insightful. It's impossible to forget Di Sheehan.

Di: I turned to my then husband and I turned to him and said, I want another baby.

Di: Because there was a void there.

Kumi: I was so happy that Di wanted to chat again for this podcast.

Kumi: Hi Di. How nice is it to see you again? I was just smiling as you were walking in.

Di: Alright, OK.

Kumi: Thank you so much for coming to chat.

Kumi: Di, you were one of 5 children. You grew up in a big Catholic family. What was it like growing up in that family in the sort of 50s and 60s?

Di: It was a difficult childhood as such. My brother and sisters, we had a really good relationship, but we didn't as such have a conventional upbringing. We were raised in hotels.

Di: I quite often say that I come from an Irish Catholic alcoholic background, and that's quite literally true. My father was a publican. My first memory is that downstairs was a pub, you know, old fashioned hotel.

Di:. So my sisters and my brother, we were like a little gang because we just roamed through the hotel, you know, went into the guest rooms, jumped on the bed, got into trouble, all those sorts of things. And from a very early age, we all tried to stay out of the way of our father, because you would never know what would set him off when you're living in that environment.

Di: There's a lot of alcohol, you know, obviously a lot of drinking, a lot of smoking, you know, the smells. To this day, I can't walk past a hotel and I get a whiff from the cellar of beer and it just turns my stomach, as does the smell of cigarettes. It was just that that environment.

Kumi: I understand you stood up to your father when you were about 11. What happened there?

Di: I did stand up to my father. I can remember distinctly it was my mother's birthday and he had bought her a piece of jewelry. He had it in a box. But he was drunk. He was, he was pissed. We were all, you know, wanting to have cake and all laughing and talking, etc. and I don't know what set him off and

Di: He just threw the box with the ring or whatever was inside at my mother and hit her.

Di: And I, I did try to stand up to him.

Di: And tell him that that wasn't right. We were, all of us were concerned, we were in tears and he hit me.

Di: So I ran out. I, I left.

Di: I just ran out the door and I thought, I'll go somewhere safe, which was the local Catholic Church. And the priest listened to what I said and then drove me back and put me back inside.

Di: And then of course, my father says, I'll come in for a drink. And then the priest says, well, well, you know, it's good to have her home. I'll stay and have some drinks with you. It must be difficult having a daughter that age that isn't obedient or doesn't respect you or things like that.

Di: And that was a betrayal. That was a betrayal. I had, I can remember, I felt such hatred, you know, having been told that the church was a sanctuary.

Di: And in fact, the priest, that priest and other priests were just my father's drinking buddies.

Kumi: You must have felt so let down and that kind of trust.

Di: Absolutely, and abandoned. And when that happens when you're a child, you start to put up those barriers to protect yourself.

Kumi: You've said that sort of the only way that you could survive your childhood was to sort of get out as soon as you could and getting an education and

Kumi: Studying to be a vet, it feels like they, that was such a huge part of having an adulthood or moving out of that childhood.

Di: It was important for me earlier on.

Di: To take control of my life. I can remember that I.

Di: And I didn't think this straight away. It was a conscious thought that I was never.

Di: Going to let anyone have any control over my life, that sort of control over my life, that I was going to be responsible for myself.

Di: And I knew that I needed to, I needed to educate myself, and that's what I focused on.

Kumi: You fall in love, you're unwed. You fall pregnant.

Kumi: When you found out you were pregnant, what went through your mind?

Di: First of all, I think I was in denial. It was, I can't be, it's.

Di: Not possible, um, you know, all the things that go through here.

Di: And I had a baby.

Di: And I was told that the baby had died. I didn't ever, after he was born, I didn't hold him. They.

Di: Took him away, and I don't even know that anyone told me that I'd had a boy.

Di: And then I was left isolated. I can remember they took him away and everyone left. And I was freezing cold. I can remember.

Di: I just was shivering.

Di: And I was on, you know, I remember it as a stainless steel table by myself, left there by myself.

Di: And I don't know for how long. And I can remember that.

Di: I think it was a doctor because a man went past the door.

Di: With a white coat on and she said, Are you all right? And I was shivering, I was crying. I was bleeding. I had no blanket on me, nothing.

Di: And he said, are you all right? And I said, I just went no. And he just walked a few paces and he said,

Di: She must have been the nurses standing there.

Di: Someone get in there and look after her.

Di: That…that was the only kindness that I received at that time.

Kumi: So you're all alone, you've given birth to a baby. You haven't held him, you don't even know it's a him.

Kumi: Do they then come in and say, your baby died?

Di: No, nothing.

Di: From that time, having seen that doctor.

Di: I don't have a lot of memories after that. I can't remember whether it was like death by 1000 cuts where they came in and said that he was.

Di: Unwell or, but I do know that they said that he hadn't survived.

Kumi: You then signed papers which you believed were sort of discharge papers to get you out of the hospital, but in fact, you were signing adoption you were handing over your child to the, to the state.

Di: Yes. That's exactly what happened. I was told that I couldn't leave the hospital until I'd signed the papers, so I signed the papers. Then I left.

Kumi: You went on to marry and have 2 more children, when you held those babies in your arms and you brought them home.

Kumi: What was that like?

Di: It was absolutely. It was absolutely wonderful. It was.

Di: Most wonderful, wonderful feeling.

Di: To be responsible for this child, to have this love that I did have, and I understand more now. For my eldest son, I had maternal connection and I had love for him, but no child to.

Di: To give it to and then having buried all those feelings when I had.

Di: My other children, it was I.

Di: Just poured myself, I just.

Di: I just rank up their smell, their touch, they feel, their noises and fully accepted the responsibility to look after them.

Di: I know that when, because I had a daughter with my then husband and then a son.

Di: And when I had my son.

Di: I turned to my then husband and I turned to him and said, I want another baby.

Di: Because there was a void there, it was his toe.

Di: I wanted my first child to be part of this family.

Kumi: Did you ever tell your then husband about your firstborn?

Di: No.

Di: No, when I buried all this, and then started virtually a new life.

Di: I'd buried it so deeply, I didn't have.

Di: The skills, I didn't have the understanding to be able to talk about this to anyone and.

Di: Not to him either.

Kumi: 42 years later, you received an email. Who was it from?

Di: I received an email from a young man saying with his birth date in the hospital saying he thought.

Di: That I was his mother.

Di: And I couldn't breathe. I I couldn't breathe.

Di: It was uh very difficult to take in and then I had to process.

Di: What had happened in the context of me personally because I had blocked out exactly what had happened. And I think the issue for me is that what society in general at that time and the Catholic Church in particular and other churches and doctors, etc. what they were doing, which was so cruel and so lacking in the form of

Di: Kindness at all.

Di: was that they were in their mind, they were turning.

Di: A child that they labelled as illegitimate into a legitimate child, a child that needed to be saved from the young, unmarried mother.

Kumi: You discovered that the baby you had been told had died at birth, was in fact alive, and that you have a son who is now in his 50s. What was it like to learn that?

Di: It was… It was sheer joy. It was unbridled joy.

Di: That what I'd buried so deeply in the secret that I'd held.

Di: And what I'd been told was not true. And the fact that he he was alive wasn't just a relief, it was just.

Di: Joy, even as I was trying to work out what happened, I was trying to remember to breathe again. I was also trying to work out how I would tell my other children and my family, because with this secret, to me, I hadn't told anyone.

Di: Mm.

Kumi: It's just extraordinary. I can't even imagine that moment and so much to process in an instant, in an instant. You were initially quite reluctant to talk about your story. Why was that?

Di: The story is very personal, even though it happened to, you know, the same situation in various forms happened to probably around 240, 250,000 young women that were either coerced or lied to and their babies were then taken and given to couples, other couples.

Di: But I didn't want to be seen as a victim or.

Di: Being gratuitous in this very, very personal situation. And I think just thinking about it now with that question that you've asked is,

Di: I think that I didn't want to be judged.

Di: I think, and, ah, I think that was a big.

Di: Being part of it.

Di: It kept this secret for decades, you know, like with me, it was 40 years. It was important to be able to say that, to be able to sit there and let people know that this actually happened and it had a devastating effect on the young women and the children involved.

Kumi: What sort of judgement were you thinking might happen or what were you afraid?

Kumi: That people might say, what did you think people would say?

Di: I always thought of myself as having been brought up in the Catholic Church. I labelled myself as a Catholic girl gone bad. And

Di: Even when I, when I think of it now, that's.

Di: It's very painful.

Di: To think that I, well, it's sad to think that that's how I labelled myself but.

Di: When you're a young girl and you've been brought up and told by nuns and involved in the Catholic Church, then that label became a part of me. I know it's not rational, but it was.

Di: That understanding that, what I'd been taught as a Catholic child and the strict moral code that I'd done something just.

Di: Absolutely awful, which was to fall in love with a young man and have a relationship.

Di: And not be buried and then have a baby. So that was in society these days, I mean, you would think, wouldn't do that. We've come a long way. But that background and that indoctrination is very entrenched, becomes entrenched. And you, you can tell I get transported back a bit to.

Di: What happened, even though I don't have whole memories of that time, I lost probably more than 2, closer to 4 years of my life. After that, just trying to cope without any support, etc. and nobody talking about anything, just trying to move on.

Di: And when that happens, that is the judgement and the pain. Some people have called me brave, which I don't think that I am, but I think

Di: If you don't talk about a secret, if you don't acknowledge it, then.

Di: I don't believe you can move on, and I probably would have if my son hadn't.

Di: Hadn't sent me an email, I probably would have gone to my grave without sounding melodramatic.

Di: Without telling anyone. Whereas now that I've spoken about it to my family and my friends, and that is all part of the healing process and an understanding too of

Di: Our history, which was so devastating to a group of society that we're actually innocent young women.

Kumi: When did you tell your then adult children? About him and what was that like?

Di: We always have a family dinner once a week. And my youngest was still at home. He was at university and my daughter would come over. And so I said, OK, then, come over for dinner. We'll have a family meeting. I've got something I want to tell you. So they were there in the kitchen, meal was going out onto the table. And my youngest stood in the kitchen and said, OK, you've got something to tell us. And I said, yes. I said, but we'll have dinner and then I'll talk to you.

Di: And he went, I know what it is.

Di: And I went, I don't think so. He was adamant, yes, I know what it is.

Di: I went, OK, what is it, then, what do you think it is? And he went, you've found God.

Kumi: So there was something different about you and you've kind of flagged that there's something you want to talk about. When he said that, did you laugh? What the fuck?

Kumi: What the fuck?

Di: I said, Tom, where did you get? Why would you think that? I mean, that's absurd. I said, you know what I think about religion. And I said to him, you don't know your mother very well at all, do you?

Kumi: Yeah.

Kumi: And so you say, no, I'm not, I'm not, that's not what's happened. I haven't found God, but this is what's happened.

Di: And by the time I had told them, just I told them briefly that I had a relationship and that I've been contacted and my son and I'd been told that he died and now he was here and

Di: And then I said, and by the way, I'm a grandmother, and they burst out.

Di: I mean, you're a grandmother. Oh God, like this. And then I had the email and I gave it to them. And then I was crying and my daughter hugged me and

Di: Then we talked a bit about what had happened, etc. and they accepted it. They accepted that they had a brother.

Di: And they had two cousins as well. So it was then we moved on to, well, when can we meet them? How can we do this, etc. etc. So.

Di: It was wonderful. It was absolutely wonderful.

Kumi: What is your relationship like with your eldest son now?

Di: It's a very relaxed relationship now. I was overjoyed the first time that I heard him.

Di: Refer to me as my mother sit like this, and that relationship is.

Di: I think getting stronger and we're understanding.

Di: More about each other. We celebrate holidays and birthdays and things like that. And I wouldn't say we, it's not that we're working on it. It's, it's, he's part of the family, we're part of his family.

Di: And it's respectful and kind. It's a lovely relationship.

Kumi: You've described the shame you felt and feeling worthless and judged. Do you still feel that way about yourself when you look in the mirror, who's the dye that you see?

Di: No, I don't feel that way, I think.

Di: My son finding me has meant that I can.

Di: Accept what happened without the guilt, have a better understanding of what was going on.

Di: And I'm probably less angry than I was, you know, holding on to a secret like that.

Di: I don't want to sound melodramatic in that it eats you away, but it's there and.

Di: You can't be your true self if you're not honest with.

Di: With yourself, with your family, you know, with your friends. So having that secret, it was cathartic as such and

Di: And I am allowing myself to be.

Di: Happier, more content, and enjoying.

Di: The things that go on with in my life, but also with my family.

Kumi: Di, it is such a pleasure to chat to you again and see you again.

Di: That's lovely, thank you so much, Kumi.